
God’s Wisdom
Evidence is really not the issue with most atheists and agnostics. They say they want evidence. They demand evidence. Yet atheists play a rhetorical game that is basically intellectually dishonest and doesn’t deal with the issue of the heart:
1 Assert the burden of proof is on Christians
2 Demand proofs
3 Reject proofs automatically
4 Proclaim atheists have NO burden
5 Declare victory by default
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen this play out with atheists. It doesn’t get to the core issue though.
Here is an excellent article on the issue:
The famous atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell was once asked what he would say to God if he found himself standing before Him after his death. Russell replied, “I probably would ask, ‘Sir, why did you not give me better evidence?’”
For Russell, it all came down to the evidence. The implication is, given better evidence for God, Russell would believe.
Many atheists today make similar claims. For example, while taking questions on The Atheist Voice, Hemant Mehta—the Friendly Atheist—was asked, “What would it take for you to believe in God?”
He replied, “I guess, simply put, I would need to see a miracle. I need evidence for God, and maybe that would come in the form of a miracle that has no possible explanation in the natural world.”
When we hear claims like these, it is tempting to think belief in God comes down to the evidence and nothing else. On this view, it’s as if we have an “evidence meter” in our heads. And when the “evidence meter” reaches a certain level, we believe in God.
But is it really that simple? Does belief in God merely depend on evidence?
A Heart Issue
The brilliant French mathematician and philosopher Blaise Pascal didn’t think so. He certainly believed evidence for God played an important role. However, it wasn’t the decisive factor.
In his masterful book Pensées, Pascal wrote,
Willing to appear openly to those who seek him with all their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from him with all their heart, God so regulates the knowledge of himself that he has given indications of himself, which are visible to those who seek him and not to those who do not seek him. There is enough light for those to see who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition.
Pascal makes it clear that the evidence for God is not the issue. Instead, the issue is with the desires of the human heart. To put it another way, the problem is not with God; the problem is with us.
According to Pascal, the evidence for God will have a different result depending on the heart of the person. Those who seek God with all their heart will see the evidence and believe. Those who flee God with all their heart will also see the evidence but will not believe. It’s not an evidence issue; it’s a heart issue.
Pascal’s ideas find support in both the Old and New Testaments. Speaking through the prophet Jeremiah to the children of Israel, God says, “You will seek Me and find Me, when you seek Me with all your heart” (Jer. 29:13).
This same promise is repeated in the New Testament. Paul appeals to the men of Athens to seek after God so that they may find Him.
And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward Him and find Him. Yet He is actually not far from each one of us (Acts 17:26–27).
Here is the problem with Russell’s and Mehta’s responses. They assume, as many people do today, that knowledge of God is only an evidence issue. If they reach a certain level of evidence, then they will believe. But this is simply not true. They have failed to account for the orientation of the heart.
There is no clearer example of this in Scripture than the Pharisees’ response to Jesus healing Lazarus.
When the large crowd of the Jews learned that Jesus was there, they came, not only on account of Him but also to see Lazarus, whom He had raised from the dead. So the chief priests made plans to put Lazarus to death as well, because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and believing in Jesus (John 12:9–11).
After being confronted with evidence that Jesus miraculously brought Lazarus back from the dead, the chief priests didn’t repent and turn to God. No, the text says they made plans to kill Lazarus.
This passage highlights two different responses to the same evidence. John tells us that many believed in Jesus because of the evidence (v.11). But this miraculous event didn’t guarantee that everyone would believe. There were some—the chief priests—who had the same evidence and chose to reject it.
Lazarus was living, breathing evidence of Jesus’ identity. However, rather than believe, the chief priests made plans to destroy the evidence.
This is unbelievable unbelief.
Belief in Jesus—God the Son—has consequences. The Pharisees and chief priests knew it. After Jesus raises Lazarus, they plot to kill Jesus, saying, “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs. If we let Him go on like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation” (John 11:47–48).
Notice what’s motivating their unbelief. It’s not the evidence. In fact, they don’t deny that signs are being performed. Rather, they don’t want to lose their status—including their temple and nation (v.48). They can’t stand the idea of living in a world like that. As a result, their wicked hearts push back.
And so do many today. In a moment of honest reflection, Philosopher Thomas Nagel remarks,
I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.
A Worldview Issue
This kind of unbelievable unbelief is still present today.
In a candid discussion between atheist philosopher Peter Boghossian and evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, Boghossian asked Dawkins what it would take for him to believe in God.
You might assume Dawkins would boldly announce, “Evidence!” After all, scientists are supposed to care about evidence. But that’s not what he says. He states,
Well, I used to say it would be very simple. It would be the second coming of Jesus or a great, big, deep, booming, bass Paul Robeson voice saying, “I am God, and I created.” But I was persuaded…that even if there was this booming voice in the second coming in clouds of glory, the more probable explanation is that it’s a hallucination, or a conjuring trick by David Copperfield, or something…. A supernatural explanation for anything is incoherent. It doesn’t add up to an explanation for anything.
After more discussion, Boghossian pushes the question further. He asks Dawkins again, “So what would persuade you?” Dawkins replies,
Well, I’m starting to think nothing would, which, in a way, goes against the grain, because I’ve always paid lip service to the view that a scientist should change his mind when evidence is forthcoming.
Did you catch his answer? There is no amount of evidence that would convince Dawkins of the supernatural. None! He has excluded the supernatural before even looking at the evidence.
In the end, it’s Dawkins’s presuppositions—his naturalistic worldview—that have ruled out a supernatural being. In fact, even if Dawkins witnessed the second coming of Christ or God speaking to him in a booming voice, he wouldn’t go to God; he’d go to a psychiatrist.
Again, belief in God is not only an evidence issue; it is also a worldview issue. The evidence exists, but some worldviews will not allow that evidence to speak.
True, God could have written “YAHWEH” in the stars or stamped “Made by God” on every atom in the universe. But this would not guarantee that people would believe. Some hearts simply don’t want to believe. And some worldviews won’t let them believe. In either case, evidence is not the problem. We are.
Source: Why Evidence Will Not Convince Some Atheists | Stand to Reason
Several years ago when I first discovered Twitter, I happily followed back almost everyone that followed me, without giving their profile more than a cursory glance. Which is how I did not realize that I was following, and being followed by, a well-known atheist scientist who has written at least one bestselling book about why he does not believe in God.
One morning I checked my Twitter feed and there at the top of the page was a brand new tweet by this renowned atheist. The tweet said: “I really hope there isn’t a God. Who needs the constant supervision?” As I stared at this tweet in amazement, I saw a “like” from Richard Dawkins.
I replied to the tweet, something along the lines of: “I understand. Before I became a Christian, when I was agnostic/almost atheist, I felt the same way.” And the atheist scientist promptly liked my tweet!
The truth is that I had all kinds of miraculous proof about God’s existence during my agnostic/atheist years. And yet, like Richard Dawkins, I decided that I must have hallucinated every one of them.
I often say that I became a Christian at the age of 50, 15+ years ago, because the preponderance of the evidence compelled me to believe, and this is true. But far more than the scientific and judicial evidence, I turned away from my unbelievable unbelief and asked Jesus the Messiah to be my Savior and the Lord of my life, because I desperately needed God’s perfect, amazing, Fatherly LOVE. My heart was utterly broken and I was starved for love. Christ the Redeemer, the only begotten Son of the one true God, offered healing for my shattered heart and a love so great that I cannot contain it!
Now, I yearn for MORE of God. Today, I long for the Lord’s “constant supervision!”
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Thank you for the wonderful testimony. What an amazing God we serve.
Blessings, grace and peace from King Jesus.
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P. S. – I’m following you on Twitter now. I’m @MWWatHome
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Thanks! I just went and followed you back. 😊
I don’t do much on Twitter anymore. Like my daughter, a therapist, once told me: “I need to tweet more.” She was talking about herself at the time though, not me. “I need to tweet more” — how funny is that!
I don’t think that I still have a famous atheist following me now, lol. He probably realized his mistake after I replied to his tweet.
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Thanks. I do have lots of atheist activity. Usually 100 or so comments a day. It is interesting but God is good and in a good mood.
Blessings.
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God has moods?
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You offer quite a few lies here, bearing false witness against atheists It’s always a shame that a Christian has to make up a strawman atheist to attack since they evidently have never actually interacted with one.. I certainly do put the burden of evidence on Christians since they have made the claim. In any situation, the person who has made the claim, has the burden of proof. If I claimed t hat I had a dagonin my garage, I would expect to be asked to support that claim.
I do not reject evidence without considering it. Now, since I assume you reject the claims of Muslims, etc, why do you do that? Because they have no evidence?
Atheists have no burden of proof since we aren’t making a claim. I do not believe in any gods since there is no evidence to support the claims of any theist, be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Wicca, etc. Now, if I say, there is no evidence that the exodus happened, and can show that other things entirely did happen, then I have provided evidence and I also have that the lack of evidence is indeed proof of absence.
Now, you quote Pascal. The problem with his claim is that people do seek this god with all of their heart and it still doesn’t appear. I was a Christian and as I was losing my faith, I prayed with an open heart for help. I didn’t get anything, just as if there were no god. Now, why would your reason be on why this god did nothing? Why did Pascal’s formula for finding this god fail completely?
There is also the problem that the bible says that some people will never be able to accept this god, no matter what they do. Romans 9 is very clear on that, as is JC when he says he uses parables to prevent people from ever accepting him or this god. I was a Presbyterian, so that never surprised me, being predestination. However, if you believe in any kind of free will to accept this god, it is not biblical at all.
As for Nagel, I agree, if there was a god like is claimed by Judeo/Islamo/Christians, then I would not want it to exist since is it more ignorant than modern man, petty, violent and acts like a bratty child. It can’t even come up to the modest standards of how love is defined in the bible. This god, if one is to believe the bible, was either ignorant of what was in the Garden of Eden, or intentionally was working with the “serpent”. This god murdered people for not doing what it knew they wouldn’t do. This god blames children for the actions of their parents. This god works with Satan in Revelation to intentionally corrupt Christians, after they lived under Christ’s rule for an eon.
However, I don’t have to worry about this god existing since there is no evidence for the essential events in the bible. Christians all claim that their particular, contradictory version is the only “right” one but they can’t convince each other, and no Christian can do what is promised for all baptized believers in Christ as savior to be able to do in the bible.
Now, for me, the evidence I would need to believe is exactly what you’ve said that supposedly no atheist would accept. This is not to say that I would worship such a being, but I would believe it existed. This god, if it is omniscient, knows exactly what I need to believe. I asked it for help. Nothing happened. Now, I suspect you will try to claim I didn’t ask in the “correct” way. If this is the case, what is the correct way? There is also the possibility that you will claim your god’s failure to help this lost sheep is just a mystery. This would cause a problem in that you claim to know why this god does everything else.
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I guess I understand this perspective. Don’t agree with it though.
I was once a Christian. If someone asked me what it would take for me to believe in the Christian God, I’d say that I would want him to reveal himself to me in an undeniable, irrefutable way that could not have happened except because of him (considering his power, that would be easy). Physical evidence would be great, but I’m also open to spiritual things if they exist. My experience has been that they do not. In any case, if they did exist, it would not be so easy to distinguish them from mental illness.
If God is omniscient, he knows what would convince me. If he is omnipotent, he has the power to do it. If you say that I never sought after him, you’d be gravely mistaken.
I’d give a similar answer for other gods.
So after all this, I have a question for you: What would make you lose your faith in God?
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That is a very straightforward answer:
NOTHING!
I choose God.
BTW – Regarding your reference to Romans 11. It is interesting you select this as your avatar.
Here is what you don’t quote:
“20 True enough; they were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but beware, 21 because if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive tree and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?
Since you have chosen to abandon God, will you escape the “severity toward those who have fallen”?
Also …
As a follower of Jesus, I’m an atheist regarding all gods. I believe in God, the Creator of everything. Those who think that God is a god, need to learn more history and theology. God’s triumph over gods and magic allowed for the rise of science and reason.
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So, that you claim that nothing would change your mind, you are in the very classic sense, close-minded, and dependent on willful ignorance to keep your faith.
In that no one has abandoned god, since it cannot be shown to exist, threats from the bible are worthless.
We know that you are an atheist to all gods but your own. However, the problem is that you have no more evidence for your god than any other believer, including Christians whom you don’t agree with. Your god is a god, and it’s hysterical when Christians like you try desperately to redefine words in a pathetic effort to make your god extra-special. Alas, as above, you cannot show your god to exist any more than any other theist. Why is this, Michael?
Your god depends on magic, and has nothing to do with science and reason. The claims of miracles do not contain science, but Christians make them anyway. Your very silly bible makes claims that are completely wrong about reality, so again, no science and reason there at all. Hailstones are not kept in warehouses, bats are not birds, one cannot see the entire earth from a mountain (that would require the earth to be flat), bird blood does not cure disease, and your god was evidently so terribly ignorant, that it couldn’t even tell humans about washing ones hands to prevent disease. Not even the “wisest” man in the world, Solomon could figure that simply thing out.
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Please be aware that I don’t intend to engage with you for several reasons.
1 – I don’t engage with anonymous trolls.
2 – Your Avatar tells me what I need to know.
Schadenfreude “is the experience of pleasure, joy, or self-satisfaction that comes from learning of or witnessing the troubles, failures, or humiliation of another.”
The intent to humiliate is not useful.
If you abuse the privilege of commenting, I will ban you.
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nice excuses, Michael. How exactly am I anonymous? You can go out to my blog and find out quite a bit about me. And exactly what does a snow leopard tell you? that’s what an avatar is, not the name of my blog.
Yep, you got the definition of schadenfreude right. I am not doing any humlilation, but if you want to continue to bear false witness and show you have no more respect for your religion than I do, by all means, go right ahead. The definition, that you posted, has nothing about intenting humiliation.
And no one is scared of banning, Michael. You seem to be deathly afraid of answering questions. Please do ban me if that makes you feel better, ignoring honest questions because you know you have no answers.
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oh, and Michael, you might want to take a look at Romans 3: “Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!”
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This makes me think of Romans 1:18 and following
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I frequently use those on Twitter. It is the truth but drives the atheists crazy. That says a lot.
Blessings.
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Keep up the good work
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“18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
Considering that all theists make the exact same claim, how can we know that it’s your god, Jim? Should I believe a Muslim since they also claim that there is evidence for their god and that you just ignore it willfully? and how does this work with Paul’s claim that this god intentionally prevents some people from accepting it, Romans 9? Why does Paul contradict himself?
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The name of my blog was meant to bring out the subtle discrimination against “gentiles” inherent in Christianity. They are called “wild by nature” and by implication are unnatural. They have to be grafted in order to even be considered by God.
Now I’m saying that if I am wild by the nature, I will remain so.
I don’t believe God exists, but if he does, then I won’t escape the “severity”.
I was just wondering what would change your mind since you were criticising the demand from atheists for evidence.
Nice talking to you.
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Ok. Wow. No, it isn’t that we “don’t want to believe,” or anything like that. I don’t know why it burns your butt to know that some people, maybe many people, just don’t accept a 2000-3000 year old manuscript written by men, many men, in fact, on faith. And yes, if you are going to assert the presence or existence of something, it IS incumbent upon YOU to prove, us to DISPROVE. That makes ZERO sense. You can’t ask someone to prove that something DOESN’T exist and this, for some reason, doesn’t make sense to Christians. Of course it doesn’t; you accept as truth many things for which there is not only no proof, but there may be a corpus of contrarian evidence! All you have to point to is dogma, the Bible which, while I respect the right for you to believe whatever you want, is full of holes and does not stand up to scrutiny. I can go into depth on this, but I choose not to; my goal is not to weaken people’s faith, that is yours personally and if you get solace from it, go for it. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to provide anything for me, it doesn’t. However, I do resent the need Christians have to impose their faith and their rules on others that do not wish to live under them. This has been the history of Christians since the moment they came into power. Live and let live is just not good enough for most Christians; they need EVERYONE to live under their rules and in the modern world that is never going to happen again. Please read your history, especially the history Christianity, it is rife with horror and oppression, not “love” and Jesus.
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Sure, haven’t you heard? He once got so pissed off, that he flooded the ENTIRE PLANET. That party came to a screeching halt I’ll tell ya!
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